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| The time now is Sep 06, 2010 - 08:37 PM |
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Post subject: RE: So what is really going on in Belgium?
 Posted: Dec 30, 2007 - 12:13 PM #20115
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Been here a while
Joined: May 08, 2005
Posts: 66
Location: FI
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sneyton wrote: ›There are few examples throughout the world where partition has been successful. The break-up of Czechoslovakia was probably the most pointless break-up.
I don't think it was a pointless break-up. The parts couldn't agree with the other anymore, and they elected different kinds of parties and politicians in power. I think it was better that they separated in peace when it was still possible, so that a situation that emerged in the former Yugoslavia could be avoided.
Also, after the break-up the slovaks had to face the consequences of voting populist politicians in power. As they were the smaller part of Czechoslovakia, without the break-up they could have continued to vote populists indefinitely without them ever taking responsibility of governing the country, now they did and slovaks were able to see through them. I think that if people in a certain area elect bad politicians, they deserve to be governed by those politicians. Voters have to take the responsibility of their deeds, too.
Quote: › Splitting India into two, now three countries was catastrophic for community cohesion, and although there aren't any religious borders here, however all it will do is encourage other small states desiring to break-away to do so.
Actually I think that splitting India was a consequence, not a reason of a catastrophic community cohesion. There were problems before splitting India, which were at least partly solved by the split, though it might have caused some new ones. Anyway, I think that India is a too big country for its people to really have influence in decisions concerning themselves. They would probably be better off if India was split in even smaller states. Remember that it has a population bigger than the whole Europe.
Quote: › Belgium's also a very small country currently, so why do its citizens want to reside in a smaller state with a reduced influence in world politics?
That kind of thinking must be some kind of relic of the British Imperialism you might not even be conscious of yourself.
Better to have influence in one's own state and thus in decisions concerning oneself even if the state doesn't have much influence in world politics, than to have no influence in one's own state and thus in decisions concerning oneself, even if the state has much influence in world politics.
Flanders alone would have a population approximately as big as Finland, and Wallonia a population approximately as big as Lithuania. Yet I'm sure there's nobody (apart from some Russian immigrants, obviously) in Finland or Lithuania who would prefer to still be a part of Russia in exchange of belonging to a state with a bigger influence in world politics.
Besides, though Russia has a lot of influence in world politics, few individual Russians (apart from Putin) actually can influence the world politics. Do you really think that that situation is better from a liberal point of view than having a smaller state where the individuals can influence the decisions concerning themselves? |
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Post subject: RE: So what is really going on in Belgium?
Posted: Dec 30, 2007 - 02:28 PM #20116
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Addicted poster
Joined: Jan 01, 1970
Posts: 861
Location: Aarschot
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Q u o t e : › B e l g i u m ' s a l s o a v e r y s m a l l c o u n t r y c u r r e n t l y , s o w h y d o i t s c i t i z e n s w a n t t o r e s i d e i n a s m a l l e r s t a t e w i t h a r e d u c e d i n f l u e n c e i n w o r l d p o l i t i c s ?
T h e p e o p l e o f L u x e m b u r g l i v e i n a v e r y s m a l l c o u n t r y , I d o n ' t h e a r t h e m c o m p l a i n i n g a b o u t i t a l l t h a t m u c h . A n y w a y w h a t ' s t h e p o i n t o f h a v i n g i n f l u e n c e i n t h e w o r l d i f y o u d o n ' t k n o w w h a t t o d o w i t h i t b e c a u s e y o u ' r e b i t t e r l y d i v i d e d .
Q u o t e : › d o p a r t i e s i n B e l g i u m n e e d t o f o r m c o a l i t i o n s w i t h p a r t i e s f r o m t h e " o t h e r t o n g u e " i n o r d e r t o g o v e r n ? T h e l a s t c o a l i t i o n e n c o m p a s s e d b o t h l i b e r a l p a r t i e s , b o t h s o c i a l i s t p a r t i e s a n d t w o o t h e r m i n o r p a r t i e s . W h y c a n ' t t h e s e p a r t i e s a g r e e w h e n t h e y h a v e s u c h s i m i l a r i d e o l o g i e s ?
F r o m a c o n s i t u t i o n e l p o i n t o f v i e u w y o u n e e d a s m a n y f r e n c h - s p e a k i n g m i n i s t e r s a s y o u h a v e d u t c h - s p e a k i n g m i n i s t e r s ( w i t h t h e p m a s a p o s s i b l e a c c e p t i o n ) . I n t h e p a s t b o t h p a r t i e s o f t h e s a m e ' f a m i l y ' h a d m o r e o r l e s s t h e s a m e i d e o l o g y . H o w e v e r o v e r t h e l a s t 2 0 y e a r s t h i n g s h a v e s h i f t e d , p a r t i c u l a r y i n t h e c h r i s t i a n - d e m o c r a t i c f a m i l y a n d a l s o i n t h e s o c i a l i s t f a m i l y . B u t a l s o p u b l i c o p i n i o n s i n F l a n d e r s a n d W a l l o n i a h a v e g r o w n a p a r t . W i t h W a l l o n i a b e i n g m u c h m o r e l e f t i s t t h a n F l a n d e r s . I f y o u p u t a l l B e l g i a n p a r t i e s o n a l i n e f r o m l e f t t o r i g h t y o u g e t s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h i s
e c o l o ( F ) P S ( F ) C D H ( F ) g r o e n ! ( D ) s p . a ( D ) C D & V ( D ) V L D ( D ) M R ( F ) L D D ( D ) V l a a m s B e l a n g ( D )
J a n |
_________________
If the Government is big enough to give you everything you want, it is big enough to take away everything you have - Gerald Ford
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Post subject: RE: So what is really going on in Belgium?
Posted: Dec 31, 2007 - 01:48 AM #20118
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Addicted poster
Joined: Jan 01, 1970
Posts: 770
Location: UK
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parsleyij wrote: ›I regret to say I have had some difficulty with LYMEC policy in this area for some time. The assumption that smaller states should get "independence" because of their basis on "nations", frankly, belongs in the 19th century and should stay there. Our task is to get countries and peoples working together, not to split them up.
I agree to a point - indeed as an Englishman I feel that Scotland benefits more from working within the UK than it would from gaining independence from it, and actively argue in favour of Scotland remaining within the union.
However when we deal with these matters on a European basis, it becomes apparent that the pros and cons of independence has to be considered on a case-by-case basis. Since clearly what is right for Scotland is not automatically right for Gibraltar, due to different circumstances in each, both have to be considered individually.
Instead I think the key issue here is consent. It seems to me a large part of the reason LYMEC takes the line it does is that some of the cases most commonly debated are regions like Catalonia or Gibraltar, where Spain's refuses to accept those regions' right to choose their future, and so LYMEC's allies understandably want us to say something on it.
Rather than taking a line one way or the other, therefore, I think the better line for LYMEC is to say that, as federalists, we leave the question of whether independence is desirable up to the regions themselves to decide, but that as democrats we will fight for the right of those regions to make the decision.
In Northern Ireland both the Liberal Democrats and the Alliance Party has long supported the principle of a 'majority rules' on matters of sovereignty in Northern Ireland, yet been officially neutral on the question of sovereignty itself. In short, I am proposing that LYMEC should do the same for the whole of Europe. |
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Post subject: RE: So what is really going on in Belgium?
Posted: Apr 25, 2010 - 10:49 AM #20390
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Just arrived...
Joined: Apr 25, 2010
Posts: 1
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| Many people are <a href="http://www.linksoflondonstore.com">links of london</a> perfectly happy buying custom jewelry from one of the fine, well-known around the world. Many of the quality items produce <a href="http://www.linksoflondonstore.com">links of london sale</a> d in these shops and studios |
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Post subject: RE: So what is really going on in Belgium?
Posted: Apr 26, 2010 - 10:50 AM #20391
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Still a newbie
Joined: Jan 28, 2008
Posts: 19
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p a r s l e y i j w r o t e : › I r e g r e t t o s a y I h a v e h a d s o m e d i f f i c u l t y w i t h L Y M E C p o l i c y i n t h i s a r e a f o r s o m e t i m e . T h e a s s u m p t i o n t h a t s m a l l e r s t a t e s s h o u l d g e t " i n d e p e n d e n c e " b e c a u s e o f t h e i r b a s i s o n " n a t i o n s " , f r a n k l y , b e l o n g s i n t h e 1 9 t h c e n t u r y a n d s h o u l d s t a y t h e r e . O u r t a s k i s t o g e t c o u n t r i e s a n d p e o p l e s w o r k i n g t o g e t h e r , n o t t o s p l i t t h e m u p .
I d o n ' t a g r e e w i t h y o u . A n d y o u , b y r e j e c t i n g c o n s o t i o n a l i s m , a r e a g a i n s t t h e a u t h o r .
I d o n ' t a g r e e w i t h y o u b e c a u s e I d o t h i n k t h a t i f t h e F l e m i s h w a n t t o b e i n d e p e n d e n t , t h e y s h o u l d . D o a r e f e r e n d u m . W h a t w o u l d h a p p e n i n a r e f e r e n d u m ?
a ) t h e i n d e p e n d e n t i s t s w o u l d w i n . T h e c o u n t r y w o u l d s p l i t . S o w h a t ?
b ) t h e i n d e p e n d e n t i s t s w o u l d l o s e . V l a a m s B e l a n g , N - V A w o u l d l o s e c r e d i b i l i t y a n d t h e n o n - n a t i o n a l i s t p a r t i e s C D & V , V L D , S P a , G r o e n ! , w o u l d h a v e t o b e e v e n m o r e m o d e r a t e .
W h o ' s a f f r a i d o f h e a r i n g t h e F l e m i s h p e o p l e ? A n d w h y a r e t h e y a f f r a i d ?
I f y o u r e j e c t c o n s o t i o n a l i s m ( a n d I d o ) t h e n w h a t i s t h e s e n s e o f p r o h i b i t i n g p e o p l e l i v i n g i n F l a n d e r s t o v o t e f o r f r e n c h - s p e a k i n g c a n d i d a t e s ? O r v i c e - v e r s a ? W h y c a n ' t M R , o r i t s F D F w i n g a t l e a s t , r u n i n H a l l e - V i l v o o r d e ? W h y s h o u l d a f r e n c h - s p e a k i n g p e r s o n h a v e t o v o t e f o r p o l i t i c i a n s t h a t i n s u l t t h e m d a i l y ?
W h a t y o u c o u l d a n s w e r t o t h i s , i s t h a t i n s u c h c a s e t h e f r e n c h - s p e a k i n g s h o u l d j u s t a v o i d m o v i n g t o F l a n d e r s . T h a t w o u l d n ' t b e v e r y l i b e r a l , b u t w e l l . . . A n d i n t h a t c a s e , w e h a v e a f u r t h e r p r o b l e m . I f i n o r d e r t o a v o i d b e i n g i n s u l t e d b y p e o p l e w h o r u l e m e a n d i n o r d e r t o g e t r e a l r e p r e s e n t a t i o n , I h a v e t o s t i c k t o m y o w n k i n d , i n m y p a r t o f t h e c o u n t r y . . . w h y a r e w e t o f o r m a c o u n t r y ? ? ? W h y d o n ' t w e j u s t d i v i d e i t i n t w o ?
T h e r e a s o n i s s i m p l e . B r u s s e l s w o r t h s a l o t o f t a x m o n e y t h a t f u n d s b o t h F l a n d e r s a n d W a l l o n i a . N o b o d y w a n t s t o l o s e t h e m o n e y - m a k e r . |
_________________
Elections - IMS Delegate - LYMEC Congress Sinaia 2010
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=61081037309&ref=ts
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Post subject: RE: So what is really going on in Belgium?
Posted: Apr 26, 2010 - 11:10 AM #20392
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Still a newbie
Joined: Jan 28, 2008
Posts: 19
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s n e y t o n w r o t e : › I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h e i s s u e o f B r u s s e l s i s t h e o n l y t h i n g p r e v e n t i n g t h e b r e a k - u p o f B e l g i u m h e r e , b u t j u s t o u t - o f - i n t e r e s t , w o u l d i t b e f e a s i b l e - o r m o r e i m p o r t a n t l y p o p u l a r - f o r W a l l o n i a t o u n i t e w i t h F r a n c e a n d F l a n d e r s w i t h t h e N e t h e r l a n d s ?
F l a n d e r s w o u l d n e v e r u n i t e w i t h t h e N e t h e r l a n d s . H i s t o r i c a l l y , t h e y s e e i t a s a n a g g r e s s i v e p o w e r ( s o m e t h i n g t h a t t h e D u t c h d o n ' t e v e n g u e s s w h y , b e c a u s e i t h a p p e n e d s o m a n y c e n t u r i e s a g o . . . ) . T h e f l e m i s h n a t i o n a l i s t s w a n t t o h a v e a n i n d e p e n d e n t r e p u b l i c .
T h e w a l l o n i a n s d o n ' t w a n t t o s e p a r a t e t h e c o u n t r y . E x c e p t f o r a m i c r o s c o p i c m i n o r i t y o f " r a t a c h i s t e s " , n o b o d y t a l k s o f j o i n i n g F r a n c e . T h e y a r e f o r " B e l g i q u e " a n d f o r t h e m o n a r c h y . I i m a g i n e t h a t t h e y , b e i n g a p o o r r e g i o n ( c h e c k t h e l a s t r e p o r t o n G D P p e r c a p i t a i n t h e E U , 8 5 % o f t h e E u r o p e a n a v e r a g e i n t h e c e n t r e o f t h e E U ! ! ! ) r e g i o n , d o n ' t w a n t t o l e t g o o f B r u s s e l s a n d F l a n d e r s m o n e y . T h e r e ' s a l s o t h e h i s t o r i c a l h e r i t a g e o f w h e n B e l g i u m w a s a w o r l d p o w e r l e a d b y t h e f r e n c h s p e a k i n g p a r t o f t h e c o u n t r y .
S t i l l , t h e n e w s p a p e r L e S o i r d i d p u b l i s h a n i n t e r e s t i n g c a r t o o n i n r e s p o n s e t o t h e o u t r a g e o u s F l a n d e r s H o u s e l e a f l e t i n w h i c h W a l l o n i a d i d n ' t e x i s t ( w a s a p a r t o f F r a n c e ) a n d B r u s s e l s w a s d i s l o c a t e d t o s o m e w h e r e b e t w e e n A n t w e r p a n d G h e n t . I t s h o w e d F l a n d e r s a n d t h e N e t h e r l a n d s a n d t r i e d t o s e l l t h e m a s a c o m m o n t u r i s t i q u e r e g i o n ( n o t a s o n e c o u n t r y , j u s t m a r k e t i n g f o r b o t h ) . I n t h e L e S o i r c a r t o o n t h e j o i n e d W a l l o n i a a n d F r a n c e , m a k i n g f u n o f t h e g e o g r a p h i c i r r e l e v a n c e o f F l a n d e r s , c o m p a r e d t o i t , b y s a y i n g " Q u a n d v o u s v o u l e z ! " ( W h e n e v e r y o u w a n t ! ) .
F r a n c k l y , I t h i n k t h i s i s j u s t a n i n c r e d i b l e s i t u a t i o n . E v e r y t w o m o n t h s t h e F l e m i s h d o s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h i s , c h i l d i s h p r o v o c a t i o n s , a n d s t i l l t h e W a l l o n i a n s w a n t t o k e e p t h e c o u n t r y . I f I w a s W a l l o n i a n , I d o n ' t k n o w i f I w o u l d a c c e p t i t . Y o u h a v e t o b e d e s p e r a t e , o r h a v e r e a l l y l o w s e l f - e s t e e m , t o s w a l l o w s o m u c h c r a p . I t r e m i n d s m e o f w o m e n w h o d o n ' t d i v o r c e b e c a u s e t h e y a r e e i t h e r e m o t i o n a l l y o r f i n a n t i a l l y d e p e n d e n t o f t h e i r a b u s i v e h u s b a n d s .
T h a t ' s w h y I s a y : i f t h e r e a r e s o m a n y p r o b l e m s , t h e n G R O W U P , d o t h e r e f e r e n d u m a n d g e t o v e r w i t h i t . |
_________________
Elections - IMS Delegate - LYMEC Congress Sinaia 2010
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=61081037309&ref=ts
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