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Post subject: So what is really going on in Belgium?
 Posted: Nov 07, 2007 - 12:09 PM #20058
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Still a newbie
Joined: Feb 15, 2004
Posts: 18
Location: BE
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R e a d i n g i n t e r n a t i o n a l n e w s s o u r c e s h a s b e c o m e a s o u r c e o f f r u s t r a t i o n f o r m e l a t e l y . A t l e a s t , w h e n I r e a d a b o u t t h e s i t u a t i o i n B e l g i u m . I t s e e m s t h e y a l l r e a d t h e s a m e , h i g h l y s u b j e c t i v e , f r a n c o p h o n e n e w s p a p e r s a n d i g n o r e t h e r e s t . T h e y e v e n g e t m a n y o f t h e f a c t s w r o n g . B l o g g e r L u c V a n B r a e k e l s h o w s h o w t h e y u s e i n c o r r e c t m a p s t o e x p l a i n t h e s i t u a t i o n , l e a v e o u t s e v e r a l f a c t s , a n d m i s r e p r e s e n t t h e s i t u a t i o n . M o s t l i k e l y b e c a u s e B e l g i u m i s a v e r y c o m p l i c a t e d s t a t e a n d b e c a u s e m o s t o f t h e j o u r n a l i s t s o n l y r e a d t h e F r e n c h - l a n g u a g e n e w s p a p e r s a n d t h i n k t h e y a r e o b j e c t i v e . A n d l i v i n g i n B r u s s e l s i s t h e b e s t w a y t o n o t h a v e a c l u e a b o u t F l a n d e r s . S o , h e r e a r e t h e f a c t s .
F i r s t y o u n e e d t o k n o w t h a t B e l g i u m i s a f e d e r a l s t a t e w i t h s o m e q u i r k s . I n t h e n o r t h y o u h a v e F l a n d e r s w h e r e w e s p e a k D u t c h , i n t h e s o u t h y o u h a v e W a l l o n i a w h e r e t h e y s p e a k F r e n c h . I n W a l l o n i a t h e r e i s a s m a l l G e r m a n - s p e a k i n g r e g i o n b u t t h e y a r e n o t r e l e v a n t i n t h i s d i s c u s s i o n . T h e r e a r e t w o r e g i o n a l g o v e r n m e n t s i n b o t h F l a n d e r s a n d W a l l o n i a . O n e b a s e d o n r e g i o n , o n e , b e c a u s e o f B r u s s e l s , b a s e d o n l a n g u a g e a n d c o m m u n i t y . I n F l a n d e r s t h e s e h a v e b e e n m e r g e d i n t o o n e , n o t s o i n W a l l o n i a . I n s i d e o f F l a n d e r s t h e r e i s a t h i r d r e g i o n , B r u s s e l s . B r u s s e l s i s a n o f f i c i a l l y b i l i n g u a l c i t y w h e r e t h e d e f a c t o m a j o r i t y s p e a k s F r e n c h . I t i s c o m p l e t e l y s u r r o u n d e d b y F l a n d e r s , s i n c e h i s t o r i c a l l y i t i s a F l e m i s h c i t y . B r u s s e l s h a s i t s o w n g o v e r n m e n t , y e t t h e F l e m i s h a n d W a l l o o n g o v e r n m e n t s a r e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r a l l t h i n g s h a v i n g t o d o w i t h l a n g u a g e a n d c o m m u n i t y . T h i s i s t h e b i g r e a s o n f o r t h e e x i s t a n c e o f t h e t w o r e g i o n a l g o v e r n m e n t s , s i n c e t h e F l e m i s h g o v e r n m e n t h a s n o r e g i o n a l p o w e r o v e r B r u s s e l s , b u t d o e s h a v e p o w e r o v e r t h e F l e m i s h p e o p l e l i v i n g i n i t i n m a t t e r s o f l a n g u a g e , c o m m u n i t y a n d t h e l i k e . T h e s a m e g o e s f o r W a l l o n i a .
B e c a u s e B e l g i u m i s a f e d e r a l s t a t e , t h e g o v e r n m e n t n e c e s s a r i l y i s a c o a l i t i o n b e t w e e n p a r t i e s f r o m b o t h t h e r e g i o n s . T h e r e a r e n o n a t i o n a l p a r t i e s ( e x c e p t a f e w u n i t a r i a n o n e s t h a t g e t a b o u t 1 0 , 0 0 0 v o t e s ) , a l l p a r t i e s a r e e i t h e r F l e m i s h , o r W a l l o o n . V o t e r s c a n o n l y v o t e f o r p e o p l e i n t h e i r c o n s t i t u a n c y . F o r t h e f e d e r a l e l e c t i o n s t h e c o n s t i t u a n c y i s t h e p r o v i n c e , b u t t h e r e i s a F l e m i s h a n d a W a l l o o n c o n s t i t u a n c y f o r t h e S e n a t e . A s a r e s u l t , F l e m i s h p e o p l e c a n o n l y v o t e f o r p e o p l e w h o a r e e l e c t a b l e i n t h e i r o w n c o n s t i t u a n c y , l i k e w i s e f o r t h e W a l l o o n s . A s a F l e m i s h p e r s o n y o u c a n n o t v o t e f o r s o m e o n e f r o m W a l l o n i a , a n d y o u c a n t v o t e f o r s o m e o n e f r o m F l a n d e r s i f y o u l i v e i n W a l l o n i a . S o y o u a l w a y s n e e d a c o a l i t i o n , b u t o f t e n t h a t d o e s n t m e a n a p a r t y f r o m F l a n d e r s a n d o n e f r o m W a l l o n i a , b u t s e v e r a l F l e m i s h a n d s e v e r a l W a l l o o n p a r t i e s . T h e f o r m a t i o n o f t h e g o v e r n m e n t i s a l w a y s a m a t t e r o f c o m p r o m i s e t h e n .
T h e r e i s o n e e x c e p t i o n t o t h e s y s t e m a n d t h a t i s B r u s s e l s - H a l l e - V i l v o o r d e . W h i l e a l l f e d e r a l e l e c t i o n s f o r t h e c h a m b e r a r e p r o v i n c i a l , h e r e i t i s n o t . T h i s g o e s a g a i n s t t h e c o n s t i t u t i o n a n d i s t h e r e s u l t o f f a i l e d n e g o t i a t i o n s a n d o l d c o m p r o m i s e s f r o m d e c a d e s a g o . T h e r e s u l t i s t h a n i n t h e s e F l e m i s h ( ! ) c o m m u n i t i e s , y o u c a n v o t e f o r p e o p l e f r o m t h e B r u s s e l s c o n s t i t u a n c y . I n e f f e c t , F r e n c h s p e a k i n g p o l i t i c i a n s c a n g e t e l e c t e d b y F l e m i s h v o t e s . M a n y F r e n c h - s p e a k e r s c o m e l i v e i n B e l g i u m , l o s e t o B r u s s e l s , a n d h a v e t h e a b i l i t y t o v o t e f o r F r e n c h - s p e a k i n g p o l i t i c i a n s a l t o u g h t h e y t h e m s e l v e s l i v e i n F l a n d e r s . T h i s i s u n c o n s t i t u t i o n a l a n d t h e s o u r c e o f a l o t o f f r u s t r a t i o n o n F l e m i s h s i d e .
T h e s u p r e m e c o u r t h a s r u l e d o n t h i s i s s u e t h a t i t i s u n c o n s t i t u t i o n a l . B r u s s e l s - H a l l e - V i l v o o r d e h a s t o b e s p l i t o r t h e n e x t e l e c t i o n s a r e n o t v a l i d . B u t t h e F r e n c h - s p e a k i n g p a r t i e s h a v e r e f u s e d t o e v e n d i s c u s s t h e m a t t e r . F l a n d e r s h a s a m a j o r i t y i n p a r l i a m e n t , a n d c a n s p l i t B r u s s e l s - H a l l e - V i l v o o r d e . B u t f o r t h e s a k e o f c o m p r o m i s e , t h e y h a v e n t a n d h o p e d t o s o l v e t h e m a t t e r d u r i n g t h e t a l k s o n t h e n e w g o v e r n m e n t . F l a n d e r s f i r m l y b e l i e v e s t o b e i n t h e r i g h t , c o n s t i t u t i o n a l i s t s a n d e v e n t h e s u p r e m e c o u r t a g r e e , b u t t h e F r e n c h - s p e a k i n g p o l i t i c i a n s w o u l d l o s e a c c e s s t o q u i t e a l o t o f v o t e s f r o m F r e n c h - s p e a k e r s l i v i n g i n F l a n d e r s . T h a t i s t h e o n l y r e a s o n f o r t h e i r r e f u s a l .
S o , n o w t h a t t h e f o r m a t i o n o f t h e g o v e r n m e n t i s f a i l i n g , t h e f e d e r a l p a r l i a m e n t i s g o i n g t o v o t e a b o u t t h e s p l i t o f B H V . T h a t w a s t h e t h r e a t t h e F l e m i s h p a r t i e s p u t f o r w a r d , a n d t h e y f u l l y i n t e n d t o k e e p i t . D u r i n g t h e n e g o t i a t i o n s t h e r e c o u l d b e a c o m p r o m i s e o r a p r i c e p a i d , b u t i f i t i s s p l i t i n p a r l i a m e n t , t h e r e w i l l b e n o c o m p e n s a t i o n o r c o m p r o m i s e .
T h e g o v e r n m e n t s t i l l h a s n t b e e n f o r m e d . O n F l e m i s h s i d e t h e p a r t i e s i n v o l v e d a r e t h e L i b e r a l - D e m o c r a t s , t h e C h r i s t i a n - D e m o c r a t s a n d t h e i r c a r t e l p a r t n e r t h e N - V A , a F l e m i s h - n a t i o n a l i s t p a r t y . O n W a l l o o n s i d e , t h e p a r t i e s a r e t h e L i b e r a l D e m o c r a t s a n d t h e i r c a r t e l p a r t n e r F D F , a W a l l o o n n a t i o n a l i s t p a r t y , a n d t h e C h r i s t i a n - D e m o c r a t s . T h e o n e s w h o a c t u a l l y w o n t h e e l e c t i o n s a r e t h e C h r i s t i a n - D e m o c r a t s a n d t h e i r f r o n t m a n Y v e s L e t e r m e o n F l e m i s h s i d e a n d t h e L i b e r a l - D e m o c r a t s a n d t h e i r f r o n t m a n D i d i e r R e y n d e r s o n W a l l o o n s i d e . Y v e s L e t e r m e w a s e l e c t e d b y p r o f i l i n g h i m s e l f a s i n f a v o u r o f m o r e a u t o n o m y f o r F l a n d e r s , b e l i e v i n g t h a t s i n c e h i s f a t h e r i s a W a l l o o n a n d h e s p e a k s p e r f e c t F r e n c h , h e w o u l b e t h e i d e a l c o m p r o m i s e . B u t i n W a l l o n i a h e w a s i m m e d i a t l y s e e n a s a d a n g e r o u s F l e m i s h n a t i o n a l i s t . T h a t i s a n i n s u l t t h a t i s u s e d a s s o o n a s a n y F l e m i s h p o l i t i c i a n s a y s t h i n g s t h a t m i g h t h u r t t h e i n t e r e s t s o f F r e n c h s p e a k e r s . F r e n c h - s p e a k i n g p o l i t i c i a n s a r e s o m e t i m e s a b i t p a r a n o i d , b e l i e v i n g t h a t a l l F l e m i s h p o l i t i c i a n s a r e s e p a r a t i s t a n d r a c i s t , w i c h i s f a l s e . B e c a u s e o f t h e n e c e s s i t y t o s p l i t B H V , t h e t a l k s l a s t e d w e l l o v e r 1 5 0 d a y s s o f a r , s t i l l w i t h o u t a b r e a k t r o u g h , l e t a l o e a g o v e r n m e n t . F r e n c h - s p e a k i n g m e d i a a t t a c k Y v e s L e t e r m e f o r t h i s , b e c a u s e t h e y f i n d h i s s t a n c e u n a c c e p t a b l e , F l e m i s h m e d i a a t t a c k t h e W a l l o o n C h r i s t i a n - D e m o c r a t l e a d e r J o λ l l e M i l q u e t f o r h e r u n w i l l i n g n e s s t o e v e n d i s c u s s a c o m p r o m i s e .
I t h i n k t h a t i f t h e p a r l i a m e n t s p l i t s B H V , t h e t a l k s w i l l h a l t , a n d w e w i l l b e i n a u n i q u e s i t u a t i o n w h e r e t h e e l e c t e d p a r t i e s r e f u s e t o f o r m a g o v e r n m e n t w i t h e a c h o t h e r . T h e w a y o u t i s a m i n o r i t y g o v e r n m e n t , o r a c h a n g e o f t h e p a r t i e s i n v o l v e d i n t h e t a l k s . T h e y a r e n o t v e r y g o o d o p t i o n s , b u t t h e o n l y a l t e r n a t i v e i s n e w e l e c t i o n s , a n d t h e y w i l l p r o b a b l y n o t y i e l d r e s u l t s t h a t a r e v e r y d i f f e r e n t . B u t i n 2 0 0 9 t h e r e a r e r e g i o n a l e l e c t i o n s , a s w e l l a s e l e c t i o n s f o r t h e E u r o p e a n P a r l i a m e n t . A m i n o r i t y g o v e r m e n t w o u l d b e v e r y w e a k , b u t c o u l d d i s s o l v e i t s e l f i n 2 0 0 9 , a n d h o l d t h e f e d e r a l e l e c t i o n s o n t h e s a m e d a y a s t h e r e g i o n a l a n d E u r o p e a n o n e s . B y t h e n t h e p u b l i c o p i n i o n m i g h t h a v e s h i f t e d a n d t h e s p l i t o f B H V w i l l b e a n a c c o m p l i s h e d f a c t .
S o m e p e o p l e n o w f e a r B e l g i u m w i l l s p l i t i n t w o . T h e y f e a r F l a n d e r s w i l l d e c l a r e i n d e p e n d a n c e , t i r e d o f n e g o t i a t i n g w i t h t h e F r e n c h - s p e a k e r s o f B r u s s e l s a n d W a l l o n i a . B u t I d o u b t t h a t w i l l b e t h e c a s e . D i s p u t e s h a v e b e e n h a n d l e d p e a c e f u l l y a n d v i a c o m p r o m i s e s i n c e t h e f o u n d a t i o n o f B e l g i u m , o u r e n t i r e p o l i t i c a l c u l t u r e i s b a s e d o n m a k i n g t h e t w o g r o u p s g e t a l o n g . S o m e t h i n g s i l l y a s t h i s c o u l d n o t r e a l l y b l o w i t u p .
T h e r e a r e a l o t o f B e l g i a n f l a g s i n B r u s s e l s a n d W a l l o n i a . T h e y a r e h u n g t h e r e b y F r e n c h - s p e a k e r s w h o a r e a f r a i d f o r t h e f u t u r e o f B e l g i u m . T h e r e a r e v e r y l i t t l e o r n o B e l g i a n f l a g s i n F l a n d e r s . B u t t h e r e a r e n t a n y F l e m i s h f l a g s e i t h e r . F l e m i s h p e o p l e a r e n o t a s w o r r i e d . F l a n d e r s i s n o t a s s e p a r a t i s t a s s o m e m e d i a c l a i m , a n d t h e F l e m i s h s t i l l w a n t t o c o n t i n u e b e i n g p a r t o f t h e B e l g i a n s t a t e , w i t h s o m e t w e a k s , s o m e a u t o n o m y , s o m e s h i f t s . T h e o n l y o n e s t h a t c a n d r i v e t h e F l e m i s h t o w a r d s s e p a r a t i s m a r e t h e F r e n c h - s p e a k e r s , i f t h e y r e f u s e t o m a k e a c o m p r o m i s e .
N o w I a m g o i n g t o t h e f e d e r a l p a r l i a m e n t i n B r u s s e l s , t o t h e c o m m i s s i o n t h a t w i l l v o t e o n t h e s p l i t o f B r u s s e l s - H a l l e - V i l v o o r d e . I t h i n k t h e y w i l l s p l i t i t . T h e n t h e r e w i l l b e a t o n o f d r a m a i n t h e m e d i a , t h i n g s w i l l c o o l d o w n a n d w e w i l l c o n t i n u e t o t r y a n d f o r m a g o v e r n m e n t . |
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Tu ne cede malis.
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Post subject: RE: So what is really going on in Belgium?
Posted: Nov 28, 2007 - 12:26 AM #20067
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Still a newbie
Joined: May 18, 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Bangor, Northern Ireland
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J u s t s o y o u k n o w y o u ' r e n o t a l o n e - b a s i c a l l y , a s a n o u t s i d e r , I a g r e e w i t h t h e a b o v e .
I n t e r n a t i o n a l l y , B e l g i u m i s s e e n t h r o u g h F r a n c o p h o n e e y e s b r o a d l y , b e c a u s e m o r e p e o p l e s p e a k F r e n c h t h a n D u t c h , a n d b e c a u s e m o s t p e o p l e ' s e x p e r i e n c e o f B e l g i u m i s l i m i t e d t o ( 8 5 % r e s i d e n t i a l l y F r a n c o p h o n e ) B r u s s e l s .
A l s o , i t i s v e r y c o m p l e x , a n d t h e r e f o r e m o s t p e o p l e g e t t h e b a s i c s ( " T h e r e a r e D u t c h s p e a k e r s a n d t h e r e a r e F r e n c h s p e a k e r s , a n d t h e y d o n ' t a p p e a r t o g e t o n w i t h e a c h o t h e r " ) w i t h o u t s t u d y i n g t h e d e t a i l .
I s y m p a t h i z e a l o t b e c a u s e o f t h e s i m i l a r i t i e s i n t h i s r e g a r d w i t h N o r t h e r n I r e l a n d . P e o p l e l i k e t o s i m p l i f y - " D u t c h N o r t h " a g a i n s t " F r e n c h S o u t h " , " B r i t i s h P r o t e s t a n t s " a g a i n s t " I r i s h C a t h o l i c s " . B u t i t ' s n e v e r a s s i m p l e a s t h a t . A F l e m i n g w i l l h a p p i l y s u p p o r t J u s t i n e H e n i n , a W a l l o o n K i m C l i j s t e r s - w h y i s t h i s ? N o o n e l o o k s a t t h a t k i n d o f t h i n g .
B o t h c o u n t r i e s a l s o s u f f e r f r o m " c o n s o c i a t i o n a l i s m " - a n i d e a w h i c h l o o k s r e a l l y g o o d i n t h e o r y , b u t i s d i s a s t r o u s i n p r a c t i c e ( c f . L e b a n o n ) . A n y i d e a w h i c h p r o m o t e s t h e i d e a o f s e p a r a t i n g p e o p l e i n t o n a t i o n a l , e t h n i c o r l i n g u i s t i c g r o u p s i s b o u n d t o s u c c e e d o n l y i n d r i v i n g t h e m a p a r t . T h a t , f r a n k l y , i s n o t v e r y E u r o p e a n - w e h a v e t o c o m e t o t e r m s w i t h t h e f a c t o u r c o n t i n e n t i s a m i x o f d i v e r s e n a t i o n a l i t i e s , e t h n i c i t i e s , l a n g u a g e s , r e l i g i o n s a n d y e s , e v e n d i v e r s e i n t e r e s t s . I n s t e a d o f d r i v i n g a p a r t , w e s h o u l d b e p u t t i n g t o g e t h e r .
I r e g r e t t o s a y I h a v e h a d s o m e d i f f i c u l t y w i t h L Y M E C p o l i c y i n t h i s a r e a f o r s o m e t i m e . T h e a s s u m p t i o n t h a t s m a l l e r s t a t e s s h o u l d g e t " i n d e p e n d e n c e " b e c a u s e o f t h e i r b a s i s o n " n a t i o n s " , f r a n k l y , b e l o n g s i n t h e 1 9 t h c e n t u r y a n d s h o u l d s t a y t h e r e . O u r t a s k i s t o g e t c o u n t r i e s a n d p e o p l e s w o r k i n g t o g e t h e r , n o t t o s p l i t t h e m u p .
T h e B e l g i a n s , l i k e t h e N o r t h e r n I r i s h , a r e u n i t e d a t t h e v e r y l e a s t b y t h e q u i r k s o f t h e i r o w n c o n f l i c t . A n d , i n b o t h c a s e s , t h e a r t o f c o m p r o m i s e ( c o m b i n e d w i t h t h e L i b e r a l i d e a s o f i n d i v i d u a l f r e e d o m a n d c i t i z e n s ' r e s p o n s i b i l i t y ) w i l l b e e s s e n t i a l t o s o r t i n g o u t t h o s e c o n f l i c t s .
G o o d l u c k !
I a n P . |
_________________
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Ian James Parsley
Alliance Party, Northern Ireland
www.allianceparty.org
www.ianjamesparsley.net
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Post subject: RE: So what is really going on in Belgium?
Posted: Dec 01, 2007 - 06:43 PM #20068
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Been here a while
Joined: Nov 09, 2007
Posts: 30
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom
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I understand that the issue of Brussels is the only thing preventing the break-up of Belgium here, but just out-of-interest, would it be feasible - or more importantly popular - for Wallonia to unite with France and Flanders with the Netherlands?
I personally feel that Europe has too many sovereign states, and breaking a country up like this will act as a catalyst for calls for independence in places such as Scotland, the Basque region and could possibly harm the unity we've seen in Northern Ireland in recent years. I would assume that in the chance of the beak-up of Belgium, Brussels would have a single municipal government, however as the EU is not a federal state, this would be difficult to imagine.
In my opinion, Belgium needs to remain united. The fact that one has to vote for French- or Dutch-speaking parties depending on the region of Belgium they're from mystifies me. Why can't the "Vlaamse Liberalen en Democraten" merge with the "Mouvement Rιformateur", the "Socialistische Partij Anders" merge with the "Parti Socialiste", and the "Christen-Democratisch en Vlaams" merge with the "Centre Dιmocrate Humaniste"?
Politically, Belgium seems a mess and it needs sorting. Dividing the country is no way to achieve this. |
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Post subject: RE: So what is really going on in Belgium?
Posted: Dec 04, 2007 - 06:18 PM #20070
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Just arrived...
Joined: Dec 04, 2007
Posts: 3
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sneyton wrote: I understand that the issue of Brussels is the only thing preventing the break-up of Belgium here, but just out-of-interest, would it be feasible - or more importantly popular - for Wallonia to unite with France and Flanders with the Netherlands?
I personally feel that Europe has too many sovereign states, and breaking a country up like this will act as a catalyst for calls for independence in places such as Scotland, the Basque region and could possibly harm the unity we've seen in Northern Ireland in recent years. I would assume that in the chance of the beak-up of Belgium, Brussels would have a single municipal government, however as the EU is not a federal state, this would be difficult to imagine.
In my opinion, Belgium needs to remain united. The fact that one has to vote for French- or Dutch-speaking parties depending on the region of Belgium they're from mystifies me. Why can't the "Vlaamse Liberalen en Democraten" merge with the "Mouvement Rιformateur", the "Socialistische Partij Anders" merge with the "Parti Socialiste", and the "Christen-Democratisch en Vlaams" merge with the "Centre Dιmocrate Humaniste"?
Politically, Belgium seems a mess and it needs sorting. Dividing the country is no way to achieve this.
You're missing a point here,which is: Belgium is already a divided country since almost half a century. And so is the political scene. Political parties (Socialists,Liberals and Christen-democrats) in Belgium were all divided into a Flemish and Wallon party during the 70s. Altough hard to understand from a foreign point of view,it would make no sense to re-unite them.
Wallonia and Flanders are as simular as Spain and Italy. They both have their own economic structure,culture,language and media. Outside electorial-times,there is no real contact between these "sister-parties" across the language border. Even then, Flemish Christen-Democrats and Socialists have totally different point of views and programmes then their counterparts in Wallonia. Only both Liberal parties get along well, but because of the incorperation of an anti-Flemish faction within the Liberal party in Wallonia,tensions are not far away there as well.
Talks about an attachement of Flanders with the Netherlands and Wallonia with France should not be taken seriously. First of all, as already said above, the seperation of Belgium is not discussed at the moment. If it would ever come to this point (which is offcourse possible in the long term), France and the Netherlands would not be to eager to "adopt" these regions and offcourse, no majority in those regions would support this either.
Since i had no time to correct them : Sorry about the many,many spelling errors . |
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Post subject: RE: So what is really going on in Belgium?
Posted: Dec 06, 2007 - 11:13 AM #20071
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Been here a while
Joined: Nov 09, 2007
Posts: 30
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom
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Maurits wrote: both Liberal parties get along well
That's nice to know. 
You mentioned how diverse and divided Belgium is, but from my naοve and foreign point of view, why can't Belgium can't be united in diversity. I recognise political tensions there currently, and I hope Belgium can organise a ruling government sometime soon.
Just out of interest, do people in Belgium think of themselves as "Belgians", or do they identify themselves as from Flanders or Wallonia? In Britain, there's confusion over this, as some prefer to say they're an English, Scottish or Welsh citizen, instead of British. There's also a growing number of people calling themselves "European" citizens, particularly outside Europe, due to the UK being individually quite unpopular internationally. I was just wondering how Belgian's identify themselves.
Last year when I went to Brussels, I stupidly assumed that most people there spoke Dutch, due to its location in Flanders. The reaction by the French-speaking man at the ticket office of the metro was hardly polite when I approached him in Dutch. Is there a dislike among French-speaking people towards the Flemish, and vice versa?
I really wish the best for the people of Belgium, which ever route they take. I'm against partition, but it seems almost inevitable. |
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Post subject: RE: So what is really going on in Belgium?
Posted: Dec 07, 2007 - 12:14 PM #20072
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Just arrived...
Joined: Dec 04, 2007
Posts: 3
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I do not want to talk in stereotypes but the general feelings are somehow like this:
- In Flanders,the majority does not consider themselve Belgian or Flemish...instead,they have something what you can refer to as "multi-identity": they feel partly Flemish,partly Belgian,partly whatever province they come from and partly European. And mostly,this is not reflected in any form of partionism. Belgian Flag-waving is only seen when the national football team preforms well (which has not been the case lately) and on the other hand, people waving Flemish flags are often assiocated with the extreme-right party. A Spanish newsreporter stated : "Flemish people don't have blood running through their vains". Strong nationalistic feelings,both the Belgian and Flemish form, are indeed somewhat strange to us.
I can not really judge about the Wallonian point of view but i think it is pretty simular. At the moment,they stand up for their "Belgique",with a lot of flags hanging out of their balconies etc. But outside political tensed times ,you do not see much patrionism in Wallonia either.
- Brussels is indeed a mostly French-speaking city,although some reports now show that English (because of immigration and the presence of the EU) is overtaking it as the main language.
Most hotels,bars,shops...etc. are runned by French speaking people and indeed,they do not do any attempt to try to communicate in Dutch. Restaurant menu's are often writen in French only and the experience you had with a metro worker is one Dutch-speaking people in Brussels are faced with every day. It is generally known that this French speaking Brussels inhabitants have a strong feeling of superiority towards their Dutch speaking counterparts. Therefore, tensions between the 2 populations are mosty concentrated in the region of Brussels and the surRounding (Flemish) communities with lots of French speaking inhabitants.
How is it like in the UK ? I have the impression that Scottisch people are more nationalistic and fond of their Scottisch nationality then people from Wales. From what i've read about the Scottisch elections,there are some simularities : both Flanders and Scotland are economicly preforming better and have a strong believe they could do even better when given more autonomy. |
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Post subject: RE: So what is really going on in Belgium?
Posted: Dec 07, 2007 - 04:04 PM #20074
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Been here a while
Joined: Nov 09, 2007
Posts: 30
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom
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Maurits wrote: How is it like in the UK ? I have the impression that Scottisch people are more nationalistic and fond of their Scottisch nationality then people from Wales. From what i've read about the Scottisch elections,there are some simularities : both Flanders and Scotland are economicly preforming better and have a strong believe they could do even better when given more autonomy.
You're pretty much right on all accounts. There are far greater calls for independence in Scotland than in Wales. My father's Welsh, and from what I can gather, Welsh people seem to be very patriotic. I have seen more welsh flags and symbols waved around and used in corporate logos than in anywhere else in Britain. However, aside from the majority welsh speaking areas of north-west Wales, there are very few calls for independence in Wales, and Plaid Cymru has nowhere near the influence in Wales as the SNP has in Scotland.
I personally think that there are more calls for Scottish independence in England than in Scotland. Here in England, the right-wing press keep moaning about how rich and wealthy England is, and is subsidising free university tuition and prescriptions for the socialists in Scotland. At the same time, the SNP's minority government in Scotland is telling its people that Scottish north-sea oil is subsidising London. Both believe they are subsidising each other, which is getting nowhere.
I don't actually believe Scotland would be better off out of the UK. Scotland is home to some of the most deprived regions of Western Europe.
Regarding to the Belgian patriotism, I find it remarkable how similar the situation there is to the UK. There are few linguistic borders here, but waving the Union Jack has become a custom only of the monarchists, fascists of the BNP and backwards-looking eurosceptics. Most other people generally disassociate themselves from it. Regional flag-waving, as the UK is split in sport, is only really common during international sport seasons.
I'm an internationalist, so generally hate flag waving. I see it as an arrogant show of superiority, which is why to a tiny extent i'm happy we didn't qualify for Euro 2008  .
Shame about the difficulties in Brussels for Dutch-speakers. I guess discrimination is unfortunate but inevitable. Do many French-speakers speak Dutch and vice versa? Is most communication between the two communities conducted in English if not? I noticed many billboards were in just English, which confused me. |
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Post subject: RE: So what is really going on in Belgium?
Posted: Dec 08, 2007 - 11:35 PM #20076
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Just arrived...
Joined: Dec 04, 2007
Posts: 3
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Generaly speaking, Flemish people speak French as a second language because it is taught in our schools. In Wallonia on the other hand, Dutch is not a major part of education (they can choose between a few languages,altough there is some tendency now in making Dutch obligatory). Therefore,Dutch speaking Walloons are rare and the common language to use in conversation with them is French. Actually ,because of their French-minded culture (dubbing of movies for example),they are not that good in any other language besides their mother tongue.
Quote: I personally think that there are more calls for Scottish independence in England than in Scotland. Here in England, the right-wing press keep moaning about how rich and wealthy England is, and is subsidising free university tuition and prescriptions for the socialists in Scotland. At the same time, the SNP's minority government in Scotland is telling its people that Scottish north-sea oil is subsidising London. Both believe they are subsidising each other, which is getting nowhere.
In the meantime,I was suprised to learn today that Hugo Chavez is subsidising London's public transportation;).
It's a shame England did'nt qualify. But this is ,I have to admit,more because of the name then the quality of their squad right now. I saw them playing against Croatia,which could actually be a useful game for England in the future because Croatia showed everything that England lacks at the moment.
I don't know if the foreign-player invasion in the premier league is to blame though. Look at our national team (yes,we still have one) . It is preforming the worst it did in nearly 30 years ,but most comments are like this: " we have a young squad and it does not matter if we loose everytime our draw against powerhouses with the likes of Kazachstan : they're young so by the time they're 28 we will have the best team in the world !" That seems pretty unrealistic. I think players can improve a bit when given a lot of time on the field ,especially in international matches. But real talent is created between age 5 to 10,not after they're 18. |
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Post subject: RE: So what is really going on in Belgium?
Posted: Dec 10, 2007 - 04:54 PM #20077
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Been here a while
Joined: Nov 09, 2007
Posts: 30
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom
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Maurits wrote: Actually ,because of their French-minded culture (dubbing of movies for example),they are not that good in any other language besides their mother tongue.
I really wish people, here at least, would take languages more seriously. I've been learning German for the last 8 years, and I consider myself terrible at languages; but there's a tendancy to consider learning foreign languages "unnecessary" as so many people learn English in other countries. I know in France there's a similar attitude, but I've had many experiences, particularly in the former East Germany, where my language skills have been necessary.
Quote: In the meantime,I was suprised to learn today that Hugo Chavez is subsidising London's public transportation;).
George Galloway mentioned this. I found it quite unusual considering the hostitlty to his reigime, whether it's justified or not.
Quote: It's a shame England did'nt qualify. But this is ,I have to admit,more because of the name then the quality of their squad right now.
It's partially because most people underestimeted Croatia's ability. Croatia only has 4.500.000 people, whilst we've got nearly 50.000.000. Their population would, to some, indicate that England has more chance of having better players. Also, some even thought that Croatia would be kinder to us, due to their pre-qualification. The head-coach was mainly blamed. He's now been sacked.
Quote: I don't know if the foreign-player invasion in the premier league is to blame though.
It's not like me to say this, but it probably is. A dependence on foreign players has resulted in a lower desire to find local talent. Only one England player, David Beckham, belongs to a foreign club, this being the world famous LA Galaxy, so there's not much chance of teams spending their vast sums of money on serious searches for up-and-coming talent. |
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Post subject: RE: So what is really going on in Belgium?
Posted: Dec 19, 2007 - 02:05 AM #20081
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Still a newbie
Joined: May 18, 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Bangor, Northern Ireland
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S n e y d o n ,
I t ' s o f f - t o p i c , b u t I ' l l h a v e t o r i s e t o t h e b a i t t h e r e . . . " f o r e i g n e r s i n t h e P r e m i e r L e a g u e " h a s N O T H I N G t o d o w i t h E n g l a n d ' s u n d e r p e r f o r m a n c e !
T h e L i v e r p o o l t e a m w h i c h c o m p l e t e d t h e D o u b l e i n 1 9 8 6 h a d j u s t o n e E n g l i s h p l a y e r ( a n d h e a S o u t h - A f r i c a n - b o r n A u s t r a l i a n r e a l l y ) . J u s t b e c a u s e t h e " f o r e i g n e r s " h a v e m o v e d f r o m b e i n g S c o t t i s h a n d I r i s h t o F r e n c h a n d A f r i c a n , w e s u d d e n l y s t a r t b l a m i n g t h e m . B l u n t l y , i t ' s h i d d e n x e n o p h o b i a , w i t h n o b a s i s i n f a c t .
T h e t r u t h i s , E n g l a n d h a s n e v e r b e e n m u c h g o o d a t f o o t b a l l g i v e n i t s p o p u l a t i o n . S w e d e n , w i t h l e s s t h a n a f i f t h o f t h e p o p u l a t i o n a n d l i m i t e d f o o t b a l l i n g h e r i t a g e , h a s r e a c h e d m o r e W o r l d C u p s e m i s t h a n E n g l a n d ! V a s t l y s m a l l e r c o u n t r i e s s u c h a s B u l g a r i a a n d i n d e e d C r o a t i a h a v e m o r e r e c e n t W o r l d C u p s e m i a p p e a r a n c e s , a n d t h e l i k e s o f D e n m a r k a n d G r e e c e h a v e w o n m a j o r t o u r n a m e n t s w i t h i n m o s t p e o p l e ' s m e m o r y - u n l i k e E n g l a n d , w h i c h h a s n o t r e a c h e d e v e n s o m u c h a s a s i n g l e f i n a l o n f o r e i g n s o i l . A n d t h a t ' s b e f o r e w e m e n t i o n t h a t A r g e n t i n a ' s a n d t h e N e t h e r l a n d s ' c o m b i n e d p o p u l a t i o n i s l e s s t h a n E n g l a n d ' s !
R e a l l y L i b e r a l s s h o u l d n ' t f a l l f o r t h i s r a m p a n t x e n o p h o b i a . I f E n g l a n d p r o d u c e d g o o d p l a y e r s , t h e y w o u l d p l a y i n t h e P r e m i e r L e a g u e . Y o u c a n ' t b l a m e f o r e i g n e r s f o r t h e l a c k o f t e n n i s t a l e n t , s o w h y f o o t b a l l ? A s t h e E c o n o m i s t p u t i t , t h i s i s a s h o d d y a t t e m p t a t f o o t b a l l p r o t e c t i o n i s m - a n d p r o t e c t i o n i s m i s t h e l a s t r e f u g e o f t h e m e d i o c r e .
A s f o r B e l g i u m ( w h i c h h a s a l s o r e a c h e d a m a j o r f i n a l a w a y f r o m h o m e , u n l i k e E n g l a n d , f o r t h e r e c o r d ! ) , m y i m p r e s s i o n i s t h a t " F l e m i s h " i d e n t i t y i s m o r e i m p o r t a n t t o F l e m i n g s t h a n " W a l l o o n " i d e n t i t y i s t o W a l l o o n s ( w h o t e n d t o b e m o r e s p e c i f i c a l l y l o c a l ) . B u t o f c o u r s e i t ' s c o m p l e x . A n d t h i s i s w h y c o n s o c i a t i o n a l i s m r a r e l y w o r k s - i t a s s u m e s t w o g r o u p s w i t h e x a c t l y p a r a l l e l i d e n t i t i e s , b u t r e a l l i f e j u s t i s n ' t l i k e t h a t .
I n s o m e w a y s , t h e b o t c h t h a t i s U K d e v o l u t i o n r e f l e c t s t h a t b o t c h e d r e a l i t y b e t t e r - w i t h S c o t t i s h a n d N I p o l i t i c i a n s l o o k i n g a f t e r t h e i r o w n d o m e s t i c a f f a i r s , b u t B r i t i s h p o l i t i c i a n s ( r e g a r d l e s s o f o r i g i n ) l o o k i n g a f t e r E n g l a n d ' s . H o w e v e r , l i k e a n y t h i n g , t h a t w i l l n o w h a v e t o a d a p t - a n d I ' m g l a d I ' m n o t r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h e a d a p t a t i o n !
A s a f i n a l p o i n t , d o n ' t o v e r - e s t i m a t e N I ' s ' u n i t y ' . T h e c u r r e n t c o m p r o m i s e i s w e l c o m e , b u t 9 0 % t a c t i c a l r a t h e r t h a n t r u l y d e e p a n d m e a n i n g f u l . P e o p l e h a v e c o m e t o r e a l i z e t h a t t h e y a r e n o t g o i n g t o " d r i v e o u t " t h e " o t h e r s i d e " - b u t t h a t d o e s n ' t m e a n w e h a v e l e a r n e d t o g e t o n ! T h e r e ' s a l o n g w a y t o g o y e t , a n d N I h a s a s m u c h t o t e a c h a b o u t h o w N O T t o d o i t , a s a b o u t h o w t o d o i t .
R e g a r d s ,
I a n P . |
_________________
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Ian James Parsley
Alliance Party, Northern Ireland
www.allianceparty.org
www.ianjamesparsley.net
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Post subject: RE: So what is really going on in Belgium?
Posted: Dec 20, 2007 - 11:16 AM #20082
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Been here a while
Joined: Nov 09, 2007
Posts: 30
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom
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parsleyij wrote: Bluntly, it's hidden xenophobia, with no basis in fact....
.....Really Liberals shouldn't fall for this rampant xenophobia.
I'm probably the least xenophobic person you'll meet. One of my personal ultimate beliefs is that all countries in the world should be working towards uncontrolled movement of people regardless of country-of-origin, gender, race, colour or whatever. I recognise that in today's climate, that's unfeasable. My views on this have nothing to do with my views on foreigners.
parsleyij wrote: You can't blame foreigners for the lack of tennis talent, so why football?
I don't; I blame a dependence on foreign imports in the clubs that's resulted in little desire within them to invest in acadamies to enrich home-grown talent at younger ages. Talent needs to be recognised at younger ages, which most countries, except England, do. Unlike many, I don't follow football obsessively, so I'm not the best person to comment. The England squad really needs to stop prioritising club games over international fixtures. The final thing I wish to point out is that if the clubs in england we're 100% foreign, in regards to its players, the England team would be no better than a school football team.
parsleyij wrote: As for Belgium ........ it's complex. And this is why consociationalism rarely works - it assumes two groups with exactly parallel identities, but real life just isn't like that.
I read in the independent this morning that a majority of Belgians from both communities do not want to see the country split. The fact that Miss Belgium can't speak dutch is a disappointment, but is no reason to boo her.
parsleyij wrote: In some ways, the botch that is UK devolution reflects that botched reality better - with Scottish and NI politicians looking after their own domestic affairs, but British politicians (regardless of origin) looking after England's.
It's an over-complicated situation that needs resolving before the English "scottish-independence" movement takes the upper ground. My personal view was that each political region of England should get its own assembly for matters devolved to its area. England covers 50 000 000 people, so an english assembly wouldn't be devolution at all. The referendum for such an assembly in North-east england was negative, so the referendum for my region, Northwest england, was cancelled. To be honest, though, i'm not much in favour of such a plan anymore. It would cost far too much, create too many bureaucracies and wouldn't completely solve the situation.
Despite devolution, we are still Europe's most centralised country. From where I'm sitting, most of the money I see is being spent on the southeast's massive transport investment. There needs to be a more equitible distribution of income. Only English MPs voting on England's issues wouldn't remove that centralisation, only increase the importance of the south-east.
parsleyij wrote: As a final point, don't over-estimate NI's 'unity'. The current compromise is welcome, but 90% tactical rather than truly deep and meaningful.
You're far more experianced enough to comment on that. I've never been to Northern Ireland, so I've never seen what it's like. From what we read here, you would think that NI is fairly prosperous now. I've not heard of a single voilent incident for months. I hope it never gets as bad as it was in the troubles. You'd have thought that two neighbouring EU countries would have solves their differences. There can't be many people still calling for violent action to unite Ireand. I hope you can settle your differences.
Kind Regards,
Stuart Neyton |
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Post subject: RE: So what is really going on in Belgium?
Posted: Dec 26, 2007 - 01:17 AM #20095
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Been here a while
Joined: May 08, 2005
Posts: 66
Location: FI
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Interestingly I just happened to found from Youtube the beautiful song of Jacques Brel Mijn vlakke land / Le plat pays.
The comment section of the Dutch version is interesting to read. (I recommend choosing "View all comments" from the bottom of the page before reading them, that way you can follow which comment is an answer to which one.) It was interesting to see, that Walloons, Flemigs and Dutchmen all felt both Jacques Brel and especially this song as theirs.
The discussion was participated by people from several countries, and I could follow it with the knowledge of English, French and some kind of basic knowledge of Germanic languages and using a dictionary. I especially loved when somebody (from Canada) tried to appeal for unity "All together Now.", and somebody else (from Ireland) answered with the words of the song "wanneer de noordewind..." To fully appreciate the joke one must read the words that follow. 
Anyway, the comments gave a absorbing insight to the spectre of different views of "ordinary" people. I also learned a couple of interesting details.
(BTW, it seems that whoever translated the words in English, dropped the references to Flanders. In the last strophe Brel speaks about Scheldt, which is translated "rivers" and "elke vlaamse vrouw" (every Flemish woman) is translated "every woman". On the other hand, the French version which was written by Brel himself is also different.) |
Last edited by marjukka on Dec 26, 2007 - 02:03 AM; edited 1 time in total
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Post subject: RE: So what is really going on in Belgium?
Posted: Dec 26, 2007 - 01:41 AM #20096
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Been here a while
Joined: May 08, 2005
Posts: 66
Location: FI
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parsleyij wrote:
I regret to say I have had some difficulty with LYMEC policy in this area for some time. The assumption that smaller states should get "independence" because of their basis on "nations", frankly, belongs in the 19th century and should stay there. Our task is to get countries and peoples working together, not to split them up.
Well, I must say I strongly disagree. I think that the view that countries should be forced to stay together when they don't want to belongs to 20th century and should stay there.
I don't think that it is desirable or even liberal to strive for ever larger countries where the power is further away from the citizens, or to forcibly keep together countries when some parts want to separate. Instead, the boundaries between different countries should be as low as possible, that way they would have to compete of the people with the other, which I think works in favour of liberalism and the people.
Also, if one country begins to persecute its people or a certain group of them, it is easier for them to escape of the persecution, if there are more options where to flee. Communists had a world government as their goal (most of the 20th century, at least), and if they would have succeeded, where could all the liberals have escaped? |
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Post subject: RE: So what is really going on in Belgium?
Posted: Dec 28, 2007 - 01:53 PM #20106
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Addicted poster
Joined: Jan 01, 1970
Posts: 861
Location: Aarschot
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Q u o t e : T h e f a c t t h a t o n e h a s t o v o t e f o r F r e n c h - o r D u t c h - s p e a k i n g p a r t i e s d e p e n d i n g o n t h e r e g i o n o f B e l g i u m t h e y ' r e f r o m m y s t i f i e s m e . W h y c a n ' t t h e " V l a a m s e L i b e r a l e n e n D e m o c r a t e n " m e r g e w i t h t h e " M o u v e m e n t R ι f o r m a t e u r " , t h e " S o c i a l i s t i s c h e P a r t i j A n d e r s " m e r g e w i t h t h e " P a r t i S o c i a l i s t e " , a n d t h e " C h r i s t e n - D e m o c r a t i s c h e n V l a a m s " m e r g e w i t h t h e " C e n t r e D ι m o c r a t e H u m a n i s t e " ?
I ' m a f r a i d y o u d o n ' t q u i t r e a l i s e h o w d e e p l y d i v i d e d B e l g i u m i s . Y v e s L e t e r m e f a i l e d t o f o r m a g o v e r n e m e n t b e c a u s e h e c o u l d n ' t g e t t e h f r e n c h - s p e a k i n g a n d d u t c h - s p e a k i n g c h r i s t i a n - d e m o c r a t s t o a g r e e .
A d i v i s i o n w i c h a l s o r u n s t r o u g h m a n y ' B e l g i a n ' o r g a n i s a t i o n s s u c h a s t h e r e d c r o s s , s p o r t i n g a s s o c i a t i o n s a n d i s e v e n s l o w l y s t a r t i n g t o d i v i d e o n e o f t h e s t r o n g h o l d s o f t h e p r o - b e l g i a n e s t a b l i s h m e n t , t h e l a b o u r u n i o n s . |
_________________
If the Government is big enough to give you everything you want, it is big enough to take away everything you have - Gerald Ford
Last edited by jcoekaerts on Dec 29, 2007 - 02:50 PM; edited 1 time in total
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Post subject: RE: So what is really going on in Belgium?
Posted: Dec 28, 2007 - 07:20 PM #20107
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Been here a while
Joined: Nov 09, 2007
Posts: 30
Location: Cheshire, United Kingdom
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After this thread I realised how deeply naοve I am about the situation Belgium. Despite this, I can't help but think, what would splitting up Belgium actually achieve.
There are few examples throughout the world where partition has been successful. The break-up of Czechoslovakia was probably the most pointless break-up. Splitting India into two, now three countries was catastrophic for community cohesion, and although there aren't any religious borders here, however all it will do is encourage other small states desiring to break-away to do so.
Belgium's also a very small country currently, so why do its citizens want to reside in a smaller state with a reduced influence in world politics?
Forgetting that rant, because I know I'm goint to receive nothing but criticisms from the Belgian members of this forum, do parties in Belgium need to form coalitions with parties from the "other tongue" in order to govern? The last coalition encompassed both liberal parties, both socialist parties and two other minor parties. Why can't these parties agree when they have such similar ideologies? Could someone explain? |
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